Scott W. Stanton
Member
Reged: 09/24/08
Posts: 36
Loc: NC
|
|
I am a long time fan of the 1911 however I have never owned one. I have read the pros and cons of various brands on here and respect your opinions. I have liked the Kimber pistols, but I have read about the problems with the warrior pistols. That being said I have the oportunity to aquire a Stainless Gold Match .45 . It will be the queen of the safe and probably used to blow holes in paper at the range. Maybe take out a bowling pin or two. I doubt I'd carry it offduty due to its size.
Does anyone have any experience with this weapon? I am courious of your thoughts.
--------------------
"Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste death but once." Shakespeare, Julius Caesar
|
Earl North
Member
Reged: 09/26/06
Posts: 65
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
|
|
As to not carrying a 1911 off duty-due to its size: Unless you're truly tiny, you can make it disappear with a modern IWB holster such as a Sparks VM2 or Watch-Six (or similar design from various competitors). No big deal.
Hilton's website details all the "iffy" components and design-features in the current Kimber product. In short, a current Kimber cannot be trusted for any defensive use - let alone "hard-duty" use.
Besides, why would you pay that much for a pure "target gun" - when you could get a dual-purpose "defense / target" gun for the same money? For the same basic price point, you're better off getting a comparably-equipped, fixed-sight Springfield Armory 1911 - which doesn't come with the "Now you hear it, now you don't" Schwartz firing-pin safety, critical MIM components, or self-destructing target sights.
Kimber's target sight "looks" like a Bo-Mar BMCS sight, but won't hold up like a genuine Bo-Mar. I don't see as many guns fail as the full-time trainers do, but I've seen two Kimber target sights fly off in competition - and both instances seriously discombobulated the involved shooter. Memorably, one of these instances permitted me to win a Gunsite Tac-Med Shoot-Off because the other guy just stood there goggling at his naked slide, while I hammered the stop-plate. He should have used muscle-memory and front-sight focus to just shoot the stop-plate, but was so startled by his sight flying off that he "lost the plot." I wasn't really any quicker than he was, but my pistol didn't fall apart and distract me.
I saw another really talented shooter in a Cooper course at Whittington using a cool stainless target gun that the staff kept warning him would cause trouble at some point. He was very likely the best shooter in class (the other students referred to him as "Dr. Death"), but he insisted on using his target gun (CDI Factor? It was an AMT Hardballer) - even though he had a spare carry-1911 available. His gun worked all week - until he was eliminated from the Shoot-Off when his target-gun malf'd, and the eventual Shoot-Off winner's gun didn't.
The principle lesson from those two anecdotes is that one should never use an "iffy" gun when there's anything at stake. And there's always something at stake...
--------------------
"If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough!" - SGT J.P. Allgood, Silver Star, 5 JUL 67, RVN
|
Mark Mayo
Member
Reged: 07/30/05
Posts: 83
Loc: Georgia
|
|
Find a Series 1. I've had three that have run like sewing machines. My first one has 30K through it with the original MIM parts and has never failed with any ammo. If I had a Series II I'd just remove the FP safety. I would avoid any with their external extractor as well.
--------------------
FIDO
|
Ben Bastin
Member
Reged: 12/09/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Versailles, IN
|
|
I second finding a Series 1 Kimber, if you watch the boards, yuo can find plenty of them at reasonble prices. I have a Series 1 Compact Custom that has run like s sewing machine since I purchased it. Very good pistol!
--------------------
Graduate:
Pat Rogers EAG Carbine Operators Course
Thunder Ranch Team Tactics Course
|
John Friscia
Member
Reged: 01/17/06
Posts: 55
|
|
What distinguishes a "Series 1" gun etc. from one another? Can it be ascertained by serial number, for example?
Thanks
|
Ben Bastin
Member
Reged: 12/09/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Versailles, IN
|
|
The Series II Kimbers should be marked on their slides, for instance, the Compact would be marked "Compact II" or "Gold Combat II." The Series I will just have the model designation as well as no firing pin safety.
--------------------
Graduate:
Pat Rogers EAG Carbine Operators Course
Thunder Ranch Team Tactics Course
|
Scott W. Stanton
Member
Reged: 09/24/08
Posts: 36
Loc: NC
|
|
Interesting. Im getting the gun for next to nothing from my wifes uncle. It is worth it for me to get it. Im not sure if its a series 1 or 2. I guess I'll have to see. I know he has never upgraded anything on it since he bought it new. I guess I'll have to get some things fixed to make it a better gun. Use it as a platform of a custom maybe. I have no idea. Like I said I love them and have shot a few but really Im a novice with this weapon.
--------------------
"Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste death but once." Shakespeare, Julius Caesar
|
Ben Bastin
Member
Reged: 12/09/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Versailles, IN
|
|
If you contact Kimber with the serial number, Kimber can give you a build date and some info on it.
--------------------
Graduate:
Pat Rogers EAG Carbine Operators Course
Thunder Ranch Team Tactics Course
|
Greg P
Member
Reged: 10/29/08
Posts: 115
|
|
I've had the "opportunity" to work on a few Kimbers and here's my two cents. I have read the 10-8 staff's opinions of Kimber pistols, and I agree. I have found Kimber pistols to be less reliable than other, even less expensive, pistols.
One of the problem Kimber pistols I have had dealt with was a Custom II series, external extractor, 5" pistol with the blackened stainless steel frame/slide. Right out of the box this particular Series II provided the owner with approximately 25 malfunctions out of the first box of 50 rounds of Winchester ball. From his recollection, not just one type of failure, but fail to eject, failure to go into battery, etc.
Owner called Kimber and got the "break in" speech. The owner then shot the living $hit out of this pistol (approximately 2000 rounds), and never made it more than 100 to 200 rounds without malfunctions using Wilson 47D and Kimber factory magazines. Owner comes to me and asks for a GS fit Kart barrel. I put the barrel in and it printed sub 1" groups from bags at 15 yards, but the pistol never made it more than 200 rounds without some form of malfunction using McCormick Power Mags, Wilson 47Ds and Kimber factory magazines (ball and reloaded H&G 68 ammunition).
Another call to Kimber resulted in advice that the recoil spring is the most likely culprit (?!) Needless to say I don't buy the recoil spring speech that I have seen referenced in many similar Kimber complaint threads.
The owner ordered the a new Kimber recoil spring... obviously that was not the problem. The owner then cons Kimber into sending him a new external extractor. Kimber sends one begrudgingly and assures the owner that the extractor in his "new style" 2004 manufacture Series II pistol is the newest revision of the external extractor. Here are some pictures I found on another forum of the Kimber external extractors- you can be the judge.
In all, if I were you, I would avoid the Kimber line.
|
Lance Lee
Member
Reged: 06/08/08
Posts: 45
Loc: California, USA
|
|
My main answer to the original question is "no", I don't have any experience with the subject pistol. I do own three Kimber pistols all bought this year (2008), however.
I get the feeling this forum tends to be more anti-Kimber, and probably for good reasons.
After some minor problems on the first two, all three are running great. I have ~2,000 rounds through each pistol and only time will tell as the round counts go up. The minor problems were mainly cured with new slide-stops.
Here's my view & understanding regarding Kimber pistols.
The early Kimbers (often made in Oregon) have a good reputation. As far as I know, these had no Swartz, aka firing pin (FP), safeties.
Kimber relocated to New York state (just info, neither good or bad).
Now here's where Kimber got a bad reputation...
-Kimber decided an external extractor (EE) is the way to go for 1911-type guns. Other brands tried EEs and got them working OK (S&W and SIG). I suspect there was a marketing trend to fashionably market 1911s with EEs. That seems to be the main reason. Perhaps there was a strong-willed, influential gun designer in the company...
(On a case by case basis, but often in the customer's favor, Kimber will replace a problematic EE slide with a conventional internal extractor type.)
Kimber generally went back to the traditional internal extractors on its current line of 1911s. The EE models are out there on the used market, but they're otherwise history.
-Kimber also decided to incorporate in almost all its models a Swartz safety. I suspect the political climate at the time had Kimber believe this was a good marketing move. Other manufacturers were incorporating FP safeties, too. Kimber just chose a method which could, even though perhaps only in rare instances, result in the trigger being pulled and get a click instead of a bang, because the safety stayed on when the trigger was pulled (again, resulting in a bad rep).
-Then there were instances of a variety of inconsistent quality control issues (e.g., tight chambers; slide stop problems; feed & ejection problems when brand new; other adjustment/assembly problems.) Kimber will generally warranty and fix these problems, but sometimes the gun needs to be shipped back to NY right after the customer shoots it for the first time, again, resulting in a bad rep.
Judging by my three bought this year, (I bought Kimber this time despite of what I'd read on these forums, but at the recommendation of my local gunsmith) Kimber seems to be getting better.
--------------------
Deputy Sheriff
Edited by Lance Lee (12/17/08 05:19 PM)
|
Tim Lau
Administrator
Reged: 12/22/04
Posts: 2639
Loc: Southern California
|
|
A few Kimber issues in guns of late:
Tight chambers
Slide stops wandering causing false lockbacks
Improper feedramp geometry
Extractors not holding tension
Grip screw bushings not properly staked
Plunger tubes not properly staked
Mag catch traps magazines
Ned seems to have different experiences, but the Kimbers I've seen have sears that don't hold trigger jobs. I throw them out and replace them with OEM Colt sears.
The series 1 Kimber can be built into a decent pistol, but is not ready for serious work until thoroughly gone over by a knowledgeable smith.
--------------------
10-8 Consulting, LLC
|
Jordan Gladman
Member
Reged: 01/17/07
Posts: 265
Loc: West Texas
|
|
I purchased a Kimber TLE-RL II a while back (early 2005) when Kimber was producing them with the external extractor (EE).
I purchased the pistol, 5 CMC magazines, and three boxes of ammo for around $1000. It would not make it through a magazine without some type of malfunction. It was sent back to Kimber twice to get the "new" EE. This still did not fix the problem. On the third trip back I told them not to send the pistol back to me until it ran. When I received the pistol back it had the internal extractor slide.
Since then I have put about $600 in custom work into the pistol and now it runs very well. I have about 5K through it now and its pretty boring to shoot because now it works. (Although I did get very very fast at clearance drills  )
The work I had done was as follows:
Tuned and fitted extractor with included spare
Remove Swartz saftey
Ream chamber to true SAAMI spec
Polish chamber and feed ramp
Installed 10-8 Trigger
Installed 10-8 Slide Stop
Installed 10-8 Pin set
Removed all MIM parts and replaced with quality forged parts
I have never had a MIM part fail I just feel more comfortable with the forged. Now all I'm waiting on is the 10-8 sights with the tritium front post and it will be finished. 
I say all of that to say this. If you are buying the pistol strictly to use as a range gun then I would say go for it. If it will be carried as a defensive weapon or on-duty I would hold off until a competent smith can evaluate the pistol. And when I say smith I mean someone who knows how to work on a fighting 1911 and not the local gunshop where they like to build fancy "race guns" to kill bowling pins.
Kimbers do make a decent base gun for upgrades however I feel you would be better served with a Springfield milspec or even a GI for that purpose.
If I had it all to do over again I would have gone a different route other than the Kimber.
--------------------
Only hits count......you can not miss fast enough to catch up
www.ttpoa.org
www.ntoa.org
|
Mike Spight
Member
Reged: 10/19/05
Posts: 246
Loc: Kabul, for now...
|
|
I sent my Warrior to the SA Custom Shop about two weeks ago. It was new...I only had about 50 rds through it, but I knew that to get it to where I wanted it to be for use as a reliable self defense piece, it would need some work.
Here's what they're doing for me:
Install 10-8 Performance rear and front sight set (Trijicon dot and white outline installed in front sight by Tool Tech).
Install 10-8 Performance flat trigger along with SA's forged steel hammer and sear; trigger job to a 4-4.5# pull.
Work their 1911 Defensive Package (except for the recoil buffer system). This includes recut barrel throat and feed ramp polish, install heavy duty recoil spring, deburr all internal parts and surfaces, tune extractor and ejector, check headspace, etc.
Check and ream chamber to SAAMI specs if needed.
Test fire pistol with 230gr FMJ, which is my carry ammo of choice.
I included two brand new, 7 rd Mod 47 Wilsons for them to test with the pistol; instructed them that if there are any pre-mature slide lock backs or failures to lock back on an empty mag, to replace the stock Kimber slide stop with one of their tool steel units and tune it for the Wilson 47s. The only other mags I have for my 1911s are CMC 8 rd Power Mags which I run in my 10-8 Operator.
I'll shoot the crap out of the pistol when it gets home (later this month, according to Deb) and let you know how things are. If I can get the magic "1000-1500" rds though the piece with no more than 1 malfunction, I'll feel it's all money well spent.
--------------------
ATW...
Mike
Edited by Mike Spight (12/18/08 11:31 AM)
|
Andrew Tuohy
Member
Reged: 12/02/08
Posts: 30
|
|
I bought a Kimber Custom II the day after I returned home from Iraq.
Internal extractor model. This was in November of 2006.
As it turns out, I did several things to eliminate malfunctions completely by accident.
I replaced the slide stop with a Wilson extended model, because I like using my right thumb - I know, heathen. I learned to shoot with the 92FS though. I had no idea that stock Kimber slide stops were the cause of many malfunctions.
I also bought Wilson mags and ran them exclusively as the stock mag gave me the heebie jeebies.
I replaced the recoil spring with a Wilson 18lb spring after about 2500 rounds.
I now have upwards of 5k rounds through the pistol with zero malfunctions with .45 FMJ or JHP. I do have the occasional malfunction with the Kimber .22 conversion kit.
I went about 2k of .45 (dirty reloads) and 1500 of .22 without cleaning it - still no malfunctions of any kind. I have pics, and would post them, but most 1911 folks would cringe.
It is also very accurate (to the extent of my limited abilities).
I did have some problems with handloaded 200gr plated SWC but those went away when I seated the bullets about 20 thou deeper.
I know that there are plenty of problem Kimbers out there (I've been working the kinks out of my Eclipse II 10mm) but I just thought I'd share my experiences.
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
