Libardo Jimenez
Member
Reged: 09/27/06
Posts: 142
Loc: Denver, CO
|
|
To all,
I am looking for advice on Commander size pistol. I want to have one built because I believe it will be easier for me to conceal since I'm only 5'7". However, I have never shot one so I don't know how different they are to full size guns. Any advice that anyone can offer is greatly appreciated.
S/F
Libardo
--------------------
"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason
|
Christopher Provost
Member
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 96
Loc: CT
|
|
There are many variations of how custom builders are putting together a "commander" sized firearm. You have standard 4.25" barrel guns on true commander frames. You can have 4.1" bull barrel guns on commander or full size frames. So there is no ONE answer to your question. For every need a qualified smith can create that special gun that meets YOUR requirements.
Example: We build a PUP gun or a PDW gun. Both are built on commander frames, different styles of guns based upon end user. We build 4.25" bushing guns that utilize 8 round magazines.
With that said, the major makers all have their own versions as do all the custom smiths. You'll just have to look and feel what is correct for you, your needs and your price range.
--------------------
ProPistols@comcast.net
Cerberus Tactical
www.P3LLC.com
|
John McQuay
Member
Reged: 05/12/07
Posts: 853
Loc: Southern Indiana
|
|
I never did understand what the difference was between a "Commander" frame and a "Government" frame. Obviously the grip length is the same since both accept the same magazines. I have not compared the dust cover lengths.
I carry my Colt Combat Commander as an off-duty weapon almost exclusively now.
I haven't noticed much of a difference shooting my Commander or a Government Model.
--------------------
"The very first, most important rule of gunfighting is this: have a gun. If you do not have a gun, do not come to the gunfight." - Mark Moritz
|
Greg P
Member
Reged: 10/29/08
Posts: 115
|
|
I've carried a couple Colt Commanders in the past, the one pictured below was a series 70 that I put a Wilson barrel in, added a beavertail grip safety, sights, etc. I have always had great luck with Colt Commanders. Both of the Commanders I've owned have worked as well as Government Model length pistols- to include proper functioning with 8 round magazines.
I am also impressed with the Springfield Armory Champion that I'm currently shooting. It's accuracy from the factory was not acceptable to me, so I tried a lug weld and it worked great on this particular barrel. In my opinion, 4" full size frame guns require 7 round magazines for proper functioning due to the shortened cycle time. I must say I'm pleased with the Champion as it sits now (902 rounds without a problem).
I think Christopher summed it up for you- have the gun built to YOUR specifications, you'll be happier with it in the end.
--------------------
CQB OPS
Edited by Greg P (02/05/09 09:29 PM)
|
Iain Williamson
Member
Reged: 02/03/07
Posts: 126
Loc: Africa
|
|
If you can conceal a 4.25" gun, you can conceal a 5" gun. I am about 5'8"/175lb and conceal my 5" 1911 better than my Glock 17. Get a good holster and a good belt and you're set.
|
Steve Pegram
Member
Reged: 01/03/05
Posts: 245
Loc: Bellingham WA
|
|
Ditto on Iain's comments. It is just as easy to conceal a 5" gun, particularly if you carry IWB. Springfield will build a lightweight 5" for you from the custom shop.
The only advantage I've seen with a Commander is it fits in a smaller fanny pack. I don't really carry in a fanny pack other than poolside or at the beach. I generally stick the Glock in it for that application.
--------------------
Semper Paratus,
Steve
|
Michael Merriken
Member
Reged: 03/08/06
Posts: 48
Loc: Charleston, SC
|
|
A number of trainers (Hackathorn, Vickers, Yam, Cain) that I have studied under feel very strongly that if you are going to carry a 1911 into harm's way then only carry a 5" government model. All of the smaller versions of 1911's are not as reliable. YMMV.
In the pistol classes that I have attended over the years there were several students that were smaller than Libarto's 5'7'' frame had no problems controlling and concealing a full-sized 1911.
I concur with Iain that a quality holster and belt are the key to comfortably concealed carry a full-sized 1911 (or any pistol for that matter).
Michael
--------------------
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
Winston Churchill
|
Mike Gilligan
Member
Reged: 01/09/09
Posts: 56
|
|
Although I can and do carry a full size 1911 most of the time, my favorite carry weapon is a Colt CCO which is a commander slide over an officers frame. This gun was fully built by a retired USMC match armorer and has been 100% dependable thru thousands of rounds both FMJ and JHPs. If you do buy and Commander or smaller size 1911, make sure you put it thru it's paces to ensure complete reliability.
|
Matt Haught
Member
Reged: 04/24/05
Posts: 1109
Loc: Arizona
|
|
FWIW, I've always found the butt length to be more of a factor than slide/barrel length when it comes to concealment. I carry primarily in an IWB, though, so YMMV.
--------------------
"Wrestle well, and wield lance, spear, sword and dagger manfully, whose use in others' hands is wasted."
-Johannes Liechtenauer, 14th Century German swordmaster.
|
Christopher Provost
Member
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 96
Loc: CT
|
|
All are valid points and I agree with all of them.
A recent show on the Military Channel told the story of how a US Marine (I believe) decided the firearms he was being issued to storm the beaches in WWII were "not enough" gun. So he made a Stinger: He to an ANM2, a light air cooled beltfed .30 caliber machine gun designed and meant for Aircraft wings, and modified it. He shortened the barrel, attached a stock, trigger guard, trigger and sights plus more. He now had what he thought would be the ultimate "entry" gun to charge the pillboxes of the Japanese. The Marine's new firearm did everything he asked it to and more including chewing up lots of ammo FAST!
The program went on to tell the tale of how this brave young American saved lots of valuable US Marine lives because he knew what he wanted and knew how to get the job done.
So, yes, when going into harms way, carry as much gun as you can.
--------------------
ProPistols@comcast.net
Cerberus Tactical
www.P3LLC.com
|
Erick Gelhaus
Administrator
Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 890
Loc: Northern California
|
|
Well, Mr McQuay asked and I did not see answer to his query. Having an actual Commander and a Commander-sized pistol for another manufacturer I guess I am missing this too.
What is a true Commander frame?
--------------------
“Fortuitous outcomes reinforce poor tactics.”
Gary Rovarino
|
Libardo Jimenez
Member
Reged: 09/27/06
Posts: 142
Loc: Denver, CO
|
|
Thanks everyone for your advice. I knew coming on here to ask this question would produce a good amount of great advice. While most believe that the only 1911 to carry in harms way is a 5" gun, I believe that the 4.25" sized gun can be made to run just as reliably. I have done my research and I believe the builder I am working with can make my Commander just as reliable as a full size gun. I carry my 5" gun from time to time but always end up coming back to my M&P9c because of the size difference and having less restrictions on my wardrobe as I do with a 5" gun. I know the M&P9c and Commander are apples and oranges but I still believe the Commander will be easier to carry and conceal that the 5" gun. Thanks again everyone for all the great advice.
As far as the size goes, I believe it is a full size frame with a shorter slide and a 4.25" barrel.
S/F
Libardo
--------------------
"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason
|
Tom Koglman
Member
Reged: 05/28/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Ohio, USA
|
|
IMHO I think one of the best 1911 CCW packages going is a full size slide and barrel (5") on a full size frame that's been given the Ed Brown "bobtail" grip treatment and MSH.
I've carried a 1911 concealed and the slide length is not the problem due to the slim, rounded shape. It's the point on the butt that gives it away. The bobtail really reduces printing and lets you keep the full size grip and magazines.
Any decent builder can fit one to a full size frame.
--------------------
Firearms Instructor
Certified Glock Armorer
|
Christopher Provost
Member
Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 96
Loc: CT
|
|
The frame geometry internally is different from that of the Government in that the slide rails are shorter, the dust cover is shorter and the position of the bowtie is different. A Gov frame can be made into a commander frame by modifying the geometry. Obviously the reverse is not true unless someone wanted to so some very serious welding. This is just the gist of the concept and I'm sure there is someone here who can give actual measurements of what and where. Not being a math wizard I can tell you some of the original commander frames we received from our machineshop were way off and my engineer had to sit with the machinist and reprogram the CNC. The machinist just chopped the dust cover thinking that was correct. This was a very costly mistake on his part and a series of frames were lost.
Another point is the length of the stroke via the changes of the internal geometry.. If this is not correct the stroke length, which is obviously shorter becomes a geometrical nightmare.
However, WHEN a true commander frame is received, we have been able to build 100% reliable pistols utilizing the 4.25" ORIGINAL configuration. Yes, some manufacturers are using the 4.1" bullbarrel design to great success, however my crew feel that is too short for optimal reliablity.
Some shops are now utilizing an Officers frame with even shorters frame slide rails using a 4.1" Bull barrel setup tring to gain back length of travel with the longer upper. Again, this becomes a task for the mathematician and engineer. Yes, and I agree, the 5" is optimal. Yes, I agree the bobtail is nice, but I draw the line at 4.25".
The PUP (Professional/Police Urban Pistol) pictured above, ran a reliability test of 1000 rounds non-stop using 230 Gold Dot with 100% reliability. Yes it became hot and the muzzle flip on the shorter gun is a bit more snappy than a 5". However the agency looking at the pistol for their undercover officers felt the trade off of size and weight would be beneficial to their officers. Also, due to the shortend stroke of the slide, the cyclical action of the stroke is faster than that of a 5" necessitating the use of higher weight recoil springs while at the same time reducing the number of cycles that spring can maintain prior to failure or replacement. Additionally the lightened slide allows a faster transition from target to target in a multiple threat situation. This is shown prodominately in Steel challenge pistols where 5" and 6" slide are hacked to pieces to reduce weight for that specific reason.
Some feel the FLGR in a Commander is silly and un-necessary. I'm sure both sides of the argument have valid points. I have found in our designs they are not needed in this size format.
Also internal rail modifications must be made on true commander slide for all of the reasons listed above.
I hope this give a better explaination to the question.
Respectully,
Christopher Provost
--------------------
ProPistols@comcast.net
Cerberus Tactical
www.P3LLC.com
|
Quitman Dennis
Member
Reged: 06/21/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Nashville, TN
|
|
In addition to the shorter dust cover, a less obvious difference between Govt and Commander sized frames is that on the Commander, the boss that the recoil spring guide rests on is about 0.1" shorter (on the Colt frames that I have). This means that there is less space behind the recoil spring guide for the barrel lugs. The forward sloping lugs of a Govt barrel will hit the back of the guide. A proper Commander or Officer barrel has a vertical profile on the front of the lugs so as to not interfere. The gun will run for a time with the wrong barrel profile in place but things are being banged around.
I have long been a user of the Officer sized frame, both with 4.25 and 3.5 barrels. They work well for me. As noted, things happen quicker in them and there is less margin for timing errors.
Quitman
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
